The following is a transcript of a recorded conversation I had with a woman several years ago. I don’t know whether I still agree with myself about what I said here, but I suppose I must have at the time.
She: You were talking about these dependency relationships, where the man, if he wants certain things from a woman, is willing to put up with a certain amount of bullshit to get it, and the woman usually ends up with more bullshit to tolerate. And you made a point of saying that, whether or not he says “I love you,” makes a big difference in how she’s handling it. What does that mean, does he feel like he has to say it, even if he doesn’t really love her? Why is it so important for women to hear that, but it doesn’t seem to be important for men to say it? Or is that just some circumstances, and some relationships?
He: It’s just some circumstances and some relationships, but it’s pretty pervasive. Fact is, it doesn’t matter what the guy feels. He can truly love her. He can sort of love her. He can not know whether he loves her. Or he can not love her. But he knows the rules say that he’s got to say that he loves her.
From the perspective of the woman, she can’t know which one of those situations he’s in. She doesn’t acknowledge that such things exist. But the female sex has forced the issue. Thanks to 10,000 years of females demanding that men say they love them whether they do or not, you have all the men saying I love you, easily.
Now some don’t, I don’t, some other old guy friends of mine don’t, but it’s a subject of some discussion between us, it pisses us off. Fact is, that’s what women try hard to make a guy do, they are willing to go through all kinds of games and machinations to try to force a man to say it, no matter what the man feels.
My friends encounter it all the time with women. I’ve encountered it with most of the women I’ve ever gotten involved with. It’s pretty much a hundred percent. It’s as though they don’t give a rat what you’re really feeling.
What women are saying is, “Okay, what I want you to do is say I love you, whether you feel it or not, and I’m gonna behave as though I believe it’s true, for whatever reasons. Then I can use it as a bludgeon against you.”
(“Ooh, you said you loved me, and now you’ve done this or that, or haven’t done this or that, to prove you were lying. What you’ve done or haven’t done is prima facie evidence of your liarhood! And down underneath that is proof that you are lowlife scum because you said it to get something out of me. And besides that, the fact you actually don’t love me is proof you are cold and unfeeling, because I love you sooooo much.”).
“So,” the female sex is saying, “First and foremost I want to hear you say it. I want you to hear yourself say it. And I’m going to take all kinds of coercive and manipulative steps to make you do that.”
Well, the fact is, most of the male population out there says, (“Screw it.” *sigh* ) “Okay, I love you.”
She: You don’t think most women really want to know?
He: Well, they want to know if the answer is Yes. None of them want to know if the answer is No. “I want you to tell me you love me, and I want it to be true.” But if it isn’t true, say it anyway. The object isn’t getting a better hold on reality, or a better understanding about how he actually feels. The object is to hear him say those words, and to make him hear himself saying them.
She: So it doesn’t really matter whether he loves her or not, if he’s going to play that game and say it?
He: Well, he’s going to play it. But fact is, men know this about women. And for the most part, men have a really cynical view of it. It’s something that gets talked about. She’s on the warpath? “ Oh, send her some roses. Tell her you love her, man. Snuggle up a little bit. She’ll get over it.”
Guys will, for the most part, go ahead and do it. They’ll do whatever they have to do to make their lives easier. And so the upshot is that women have created a situation where a guy out there who won’t lie is all of a sudden called cold and unfeeling, when in fact all he is, might be just honest.
One of the problems is in the difference in the way men and women view sex. Men, as a rule, have no problem with the concept of uncomplicated sex. Even if they don’t happen to indulge in it. Women, on the other hand, have 10,000 generations of training to use it as a weapon or an instrument of coercion and extortion. The monopoly women have is one they’ve guarded so consistently, so long that for most women the concepts of sex and power are inseparable.
Selling sex for any commodity is prostitution. Trading sex for power instead of money isn’t exempt. But those who do it are ‘unadmitted whores’, as opposed to straight, upfront whores.
Many years ago a whore named Frenchie in a bar on the waterfront in Texas was bantering with me. I was trying to seduce her in the non-commercial sense. “Sex is no fun if there’s no money involved!” was her final answer.
Frenchie just about said it all, one way or another, and if you think of money as a synonym for power.
One of the reasons women who don’t admit they are whores dislike women who do admit it so much involves the concept of inflation. From the perspective of a non-admitted whore, the whore is selling a commodity for mere money that’s worth so much more than money. In doing so, she (the admitted whore) is making that commodity available for a price that’s easily met, thereby robbing all non-admitted whores of some measure of power. Several generations of Texas men had their first encounters with uncomplicated sex at a cathouse in LaGrange called the Chicken Ranch (now famous). For most of those men visits to the Chicken Ranch ended up as the ONLY encounters with uncomplicated sex in their entire lives.
The only commodity rarer and more precious than uncomplicated sex is honesty.
Old Jules a long time ago
So Far From Heaven 
Wow – you are so off base, it is not even funny. The answer is: it’s different for everyone and every relationship.
I RARELY say I love you to my husband and I get peeved when he says it to me in a casual way. I only say it when I mean it, and I expect him to do the same.
As for the other men I’ve “had” in my lifetime, if they had ever said anything as stupid as “I love you”, I would have thought they were serial killers or something.
I think the women you frequented, obviously, acted the way you describe, but not all. Blanket statements like that always end up being wrong (or off), because everyone is not the same.
tmso: I defer to your wisdom and experience. Thanks for straightening me out on that. Gracias, Jules
You’re a special case, tmso, and let me say as a 20-year married man that I don’t know how you got to the point of thinking a man saying “I love you” is doing a stupid thing. I agree with you that everyone is not the same, but you are in a tiny tiny minorityi of women who discourage saying or hearing words of love. And if you acted peeved at me for saying I love you, that would be my cue to find the door. Sympathy for your poor husband who has no one to express his love to (that you know about, at least).
You’re most likely right. However, if the relationship lasts after the sex has lost its priority (knowing all humans cannot perform forever), what then?
Hi June. Nice seeing you. I don’t have any answers. Only questions. Guess it’s entirely an individual thing. Thanks for stopping in. Jules
How many will this piss off is what I’m wondering. Back in da boat the women would do as much as possible to avoid making eye contact. Here the women are friendly, smile and greet old farts like myself easily and with sincerity. I like that. Something tells me these girls may not fit in quite as much as where you went. Good post Jules!
Hi One Fly: Thanks for stopping in. Likely as not it will piss some off. On the other hand, it’s an honest, straight-forward description of the observations and premises one man formed about relationships between men and women over a lot of years and involving a lot of women. It might be riddled with flaws, might be completely unrepresentative of how things actually are. Maybe there’s value somewhere in it, at least from that perspective. Gracias, Jules
Man oh man says my log-time-ago self to yours, here’s the thing…
When a man finds a woman who does NOT use sex as a bargaining chip, who has sex with him because she likes him, because she likes his company, because she WANTs to… a woman who expects no commitment, no “I love you”, just whatever is…THEN afterwards, why is it that the man treats HER like a whore?
momswomniac: I’ve never treated any woman like a whore, whether or not she was a prostitute. I have a huge respect for the challenges prostitutes endure, and for what led them to be prostitutes. How other men might treat them, or might treat other women is not within my realm of attempted understanding. Thanks for coming by. Jules
Nice response, I like it. I too think prostitutes deserve respect…and I am glad you’re the kind fellow I hope my sons will grow to be…though I am betting you knew what I meant.
But I need to add that the post doesn’t seem respectful towards ANY women, really. We’re all just people. Just like men. We’re no more likely to be manipulative or dishonest…and personally, having men assuming I was lying (because they’d been taught that women lie to get stuff) caused me a lot of grief over the years. All that said, I’ve really been enjoying your blog.
Momsomniac: I’m having problems finding a way to reply to that second posted comment about respect. Something to do with the comment text editor. Here’s what I’m referring to:
“But I need to add that the post doesn’t seem respectful towards ANY women, really. We’re all just people. Just like men. We’re no more likely to be manipulative or dishonest…and personally, having men assuming I was lying (because they’d been taught that women lie to get stuff) caused me a lot of grief over the years.”
The post wasn’t intended to be a ‘respect’ issue. It was intended to convey a facet of the interactions I believe exist between men and women in their relationships frequently, that aren’t generally clarified, well thought out, expressed. I believe there’s plenty of blame and dishonesty to go around in most relationships, both genders. But neither gender is conspicuous in attempts to identify the parts it plays in the creation of an environment where that blame and dishonesty can thrive and bloom into something destructive. A snake consuming itself via its own tail.
There’s a formidable obstacle to honesty and honest expression hidden just beneath the surface of gratuitous deference to the issue of cosmetic respect. Thanks for the posts. Jules
loNG time ago. Heh…
It might be that things are different now for young women, but I was raised to say I love you to every member of my family and anyone else that I felt affection for. So not hearing it on a frequent basis as an adult took a lot of getting used to.
I wonder how that conversation would play out if it took place today. It makes me feel defensive reading it although I can’t recall having played that I love you game since I was very young, and never used sex as a weapon. I don’t think women are used to hearing about the faults of our sex anymore since there are so many out there- especially women– glorifying all of our various roles in society. It’s hard to hear a man remind us that communication and honesty are qualities that we should aspire towards.
Hi Jeanne. Thanks for commenting. I’ve no idea what goes on with young women today, though I’m aware there’s a considerable effort to keep sex near the consciousness of men through wearing attire, etc. Gracias, Jules
Hi Jules. I had myself some doubts about what you are saying. I found myself many times wondering if the man i had in front of me loved me or not. Why did I so wanted to know? Well I was not really thinking about future blackmailing, I was only hoping for a buddy happy to be playful and cosy with me. What I faced many times was a man who did not feel comfortable with this game. My intentions have always been good. What usually happens is that if we find guys who like to play and also are honest from the beginning, well we like it. We don’t like too many compliments as much as we really don’t like too much roughness. It’s question of balance. As soon as sex is involved in a friendship a man and a woman should give each other space to trim themselves into each other. I think many times we both make the mistake of being suspicious from the very start. It can be so because of bad experiences. But I think that you can’t never be sure that the next person you meet is the same as the last one. Isn’t it better to put it as it is? The only healthy love you can have is to yourself. The rest is passion and why not enjoy it as long it lasts. And at the base of that, be good and sincere friends. We both, men and women have the right to exist, with our own peculiarities and we are all ok just as we are. :). I like your blog and I like you Jules, you are not old at all but very young and great! Thanks for all u share with us.
anita: Thanks for coming by and sharing your views and experiences. I’m obliged to you. Jules
@ momsomniac
That’s the best definition I’ve seen of the ‘liberated’ woman that just wants sex. I’m fine with that -if a woman chooses to find eligible partners that also share the same criteria wanting the same thing. It would be really difficult for one woman to possess all those things though, in a sustaining manner – because manipulation and a price are too enticing. Shopping around for sex only – has pretty much historically described a whore. The money issue makes it prostitution, and the manipulation makes it a slut. Can you really visualize a woman asking her husband why he was with that liberated woman, and he replies, “Don’t worry – I don’t love her?” Erika Jong did more damage to society than she imagined with her little fantasies. Sex in a civilized society comes with responsibilities. It has to be that way, or the society is not sustainable.
Interesting thoughts June. Thanks for sharing them. Jules
June – She MAY not “just want sex”, but she isn’t going to use it as a bargaining chip. All sex comes with responsibilities, among them…for a man to never see/call any woman “slut” or “whore” because HE had sex with her. I don’t see manipulation or a price as remotely enticing. REAL love is enticing, friendship is enticing, as is lifelong companionship and children. If any of those things come without honesty, if they come as part of a “game”, they aren’t being given the respect they deserve.
Jules…are you familiar with archetypes? Specifically, the archetypal patterns that Caroline Myss is involved with in her Sacred Contracts work?
Her premise is an interesting one, and one that I agree with. And that is this: All of us have a dozen or so archetypal energies that make up the lions’ share of our personality, and the way we interact with the world. She has identified FOUR of them that are common to all of us – male or female. The Child. The Victim. The Saboteur and The Prostitute.
From Caroline: “The Prostitute archetype engages lessons in the sale or negotiation of one’s integrity or spirit due to fears of physical survival or for financial gain. It activates the aspects of the unconscious that are related to seduction and control, whereby you are as capable of buying a controlling interest in another person as you are of selling your own power. Prostitution should be understood as the selling or selling out of your talents, ideas, and any other expression of the self. The core learning of the Prostitute relates to the need to birth and refine self-esteem and self-respect.
We prostitute ourselves when we sell our bodies or minds for money or when we compromise our morals and ethics for financial gain. That may include remaining in a marriage or job that endangers our well being for reasons of financial security.”
So – we’re all whores, one way or another 🙂
Janice: I’m not familiar with the particular definer of archtypes you name. However, I’m familiar with archtypes. My personal thought is that academians and others standing in a distance second-guessing why prostitutes are prostitutes aren’t much different than non-academians doing it. Prostitutes tend to share one of a couple of similar histories, neither of which academians and women who haven’t experienced those histories are likely to enjoy a full appreciation of.
I sincerely agree entirely with your last sentence. Gracias, Jules
I have to agree 100% with that post, Old Jules. You hit the nail on the head, applicable then, and aplicable now.
😉
Blue88: I have a suspicion a lot of men will agree. A lot mightn’t. Thanks for posting. Jules
@momsomniac
I misunderstood your point. There’s a big difference between the two scenarios. I have met women as you earlier described that wanted nothing more than sex without any commitment nor responsibility. I’ve also noticed the heartbreak they leave scattered along that path. I do agree, whatever the chosen and accepted relationship, honesty must be honored. The respect part has more complex issues – simply because it is not something that can demanded, only deserved. People being people, anyone can have a different opinion of the situation! We get what we condone or promote!
Thanks for your response! My main issue is with the idea that women play this game (per the OP)…but in my experience, many men SAY they don’t want that game, then mistreat women who do not play the game, and say it’s the woman’s fault – despite the man being an equal party in whatever went on.
To your last point – I don’t think we get what we condone or promote; people do mistreat others and it is almost always undeserved. All humans should treat one another with respect. We may think another doesn’t deserve it, or hasn’t earned it, but if we do not know their story, we don’t know much. We’d likely see them in a whole different light if we did.
Jules, as you probably guess, that’s also just fine with me! What’s good enough for you is all that matters – to you. I respect that as your right. Doesn’t work to solve errant problems in society overall, but that was never your intent. Excellent post – well written. I enjoyed it, thank you!
Thanks June. I’m not wise enough to know any solutions to the errant problems of society overall I consider important enough to ponder. Those I only consider problems of individual choice between adults are even further out of my league. But I do think frankness, honesty and open discussion would probably solve more problems than the usual methods used dealing with such issues. Thanks for your visits and for sharing your thoughts. Jules
Nice post, Jules. I like it. !!!
Thank you Michael. Jules
One of the subtle nuances developing here is a [probably unconscious] dividing line between ‘sluts’, prostitutes of one sort or another, and ‘regular’ women. My personal thought is the distinction is invalid and misleading. I’ve known some fine women in my life who carried the label, ‘slut’ on the tongues of other women. I’ve known some fine human beings who were prostitutes. And I’ve known fine women who were neither.
I refuse to accept the premise that what a person does with his/her genitals insofar as quantity discernment has anything at all with human quality and value.
This post never intended that dividing line or nuance and does not. Issues of coercion, manipultion and commerce are independent of that facet of the human interactions I’ve discussed here. Jules
Jules, as you probably guess, that’s also just fine with me! What’s good enough for you is all that matters – to you. I respect that as your right. Doesn’t work to solve errant problems in society overall, but that was never your intent. Excellent post – well written. I enjoyed it, thank you!
[Haven’t posted in a few days and forget the procedure. Sorry, please delete the one in the wrong place!]
Jules….
“I believe there’s plenty of blame and dishonesty to go around in most relationships, both genders.”
Agreed…
“But neither gender is conspicuous in attempts to identify the parts it plays in the creation of an environment where that blame and dishonesty can thrive and bloom into something destructive.”
Not as a gender no, neither “men” nor “women” are a monolith. There is no “HIVE MIND” to any group of humans. When people assume “women are like x” or “men are like y” and roll those assumptions into their interactions, they have denied themselves an opportunity for real interaction with the real person who is really right in front of them.
Moreover, if they claim to dislike the assumed behaviors, but then mistreat people who don’t conform…and say that the mistreatment is OK because of the noncomformance…well…that’s the worst kind of self-aggrandizing hypocrisy. We’re all hypocrites to some degree, but that’s one I have seen over and over and it flabbergasts me everytime.
“There’s a formidable obstacle to honesty and honest expression hidden just beneath the surface of gratuitous deference to the issue of cosmetic respect.”
I had to read that about 6 times before I understood it! But you know what, I think it underlines my point above. That “cosmetic respect” isn’t based upon anything abiding, it’s based upon assumptions about how people are or should be…and the snake swallows itself…
Although there is a key point on which we might still disagree (I think assuming such interactions are gender-wide is disrespectful and perhaps personally dishonest*), in real life, I suspect we’d have a lively conversation, passionate but not heated, which we’d both thoroughly enjoy. You just seem to be that kind of guy.
* For instance, I could say “men tend to be controlling” which may or may not be generally true. It is simply true from my experience – BUT – my sample is hardly random, and doesn’t control for the fact that I was raised to select for certain behaviors and behave in a way that creates a certain dynamic.
Anyway, since we can’t have coffee or whiskey and talk across a table, I’ll take my leave of the subject for now. Thank you for sharing your thoughts & engaging with me.
The bit about lowering the worth of the commodity of sex is really interesting, that never crossed my mind. I bet that absolutely affects women’s perspectives on the subject of prostitution.
Every girl (too young for women) that I’ve been involved with has put a lot of importance in the phrase “I love you”. It’s treated as sacred and a guy finally saying it is tantamount to giving them an engagement ring. I think a lot of guys are definitely guilted into saying it. If a girl brings up the subject, the guy can ONLY say yes, because “no” or “I’m not sure” will absolutely bring an icy silence at the least and possibly an end to the whole relationship. They don’t want to ruin anything, so they say yes and hope they can figure out what to do down the line before it gets even more serious.
Since young women are like that, maybe it’s a measure of the woman’s maturity whether she needs to still hear magic words or if she’s relying more on logic and real actions. Of course, in a perfect situation everyone would be intelligent enough to be honest with each other and say and hear “I love you” and know they mean it
Hi Andrew. Glad you came by and shared your observations with how it is today. I’ll confess to have wondered a lot. Gracias, Jules